Jesus Is Risen: Paul and the Early Church - David Limbaugh

This post has 15 comments with rating of 4.9/515

• 
  RPM7
  October 9th, 2018
  

  

  Thank you for this!

  Jesus Is Risen: Paul and the Early Church - David Limbaugh
• 
  caesar963
  October 9th, 2018
  

  

  Echo RPM, very grateful for your work, rmoor. The survival of Christianity, given the overwhelming obstacles and adversity which had to be confronted, is truly remarkable.

  Jesus Is Risen: Paul and the Early Church - David Limbaugh
• 
  snapjack
  October 9th, 2018
  

  Organized religion is a plague on mankind

  Jesus Is Risen: Paul and the Early Church - David Limbaugh
• 
  caesar963
  October 9th, 2018
  

  

  All the schools, hospitals, poor relief, sophisticated systems of law and charity, art, architecture, sacred music, philosophy, theology, teaching compassion, forgiveness and love instead of the prevailing culture of vengeance, the university system, literature, transcendence, the scientific method, astronomy - yes indeed, truly a plague upon humanity.

  Imagine Civilisation without Christianity?
  Calling us to our best selves?
  Impossible.
  Bach, Dante, Renaissance art (Sistine Chapel), Aquinas, Augustine, MLK and the Civil Rights Movement, St Francis of Assisi, Objective moral values, Bonhoeffer, the Sermon on the Mount, the Gothic Cathedrals, organised opposition to the evil, insane, mass-murdering, secular, atheist regimes of the last century.

  What did those Romans ever do for us, eh?

  Jesus Is Risen: Paul and the Early Church - David Limbaugh
• 
  Sancho2
  October 9th, 2018
  

  Pretty much all the historical Popes, the mass of paedophile clergy, Northern Ireland, ISIS, the Middle East mess, Buddhists burning villagers in Burma, intolerance of anyone in the LGBTI community, human sacrifice to the gods in many earlier religions etc etc

  Yeah, where would we be without religion eh? If you’re going to claim Bonhoeffer make sure you put your hand up for the rest too …

  Jesus Is Risen: Paul and the Early Church - David Limbaugh
• 
  roeyrboat
  October 10th, 2018
  

  Sancho2, send me your mailing address. I will get you a box of tissues.

  Jesus Is Risen: Paul and the Early Church - David Limbaugh
• 
  chrisxiii
  October 10th, 2018
  

  

  One huge contribution - Christianity was the only religion that mobilised moral, military and political power to abolish slavery.

  Without Christianity slavery would have continued flourishing worldwide down to this day.

  Jesus Is Risen: Paul and the Early Church - David Limbaugh
• 
  caesar963
  October 10th, 2018
  

  

  @Sancho - Your argument is all threads but no tapestry! When people rail against religion for bad acts, they are essentially talking about the evils of the world, which occur with or without religion. Bad people do bad things, if they hide behind religion, they do not serve religion. They would find a mechanism to accomplish nefarious acts in whatever sphere.
  Those conflicts would, and do, occur without religion. They occur for political, social, tribal and cultural reasons. Sometimes religion is used as an expedient false flag, illegitimately, by people who want to murder and oppress anyway.
  The State is the biggest killer, and it’s predecessor, the Tribal system. There’s no way around that one, I’m afraid.

  Northern Ireland, for instance (which is just up the road from me), was about Irish Nationalism and the union with Britain. Nothing in the Gospel of Matthew ordained, mandated or justified the actions of the terrorists.
  (The British Secret Service revealed that several prospective ISIS recruits who flew out from Britain purchased “Islam for Dummies” in the Airport book shop. The purchase was on their credit cards. This reveals their level of fanatical religious devotion and adamantine commitment to the cause. It’s really all about psychopaths who want to torture, rape and murder. Cos that’s what gets them off - give them any pretext).

  The Middle East is essentially cursed with oil. We all know that.

  Judaism and Christianity fought and ended the practice of human sacrifice, and exposure (murder) of sick or disabled children. Many would say that the practice of killing children has returned in the modern age - mandated by secular, civil law, but opposed by religion.
  Secular regimes and individual atheists are homophobic also. The Communist, atheistic Castro regime in Cuba used to put gay people and people with HIV and AIDS in concentration camps. And they were obviously subject to myriad other persecutions and oppression (in all such execrable regimes).

  Paedophiles will gain positions and utilise opportunities to abuse kids - in every walk of life, and each institution. All institutions will act to protect the institution. Every institution. The vast majority of abuse occurs within families. At least a quarter of all children are abused. Almost half of those abused are victims of other children, mostly within the family. No one suggests that we should abandon or dismantle the institution of the family.
  All offenders should be pursued.
  We hear (rightly) about instances of paedophile clergy, because the cases are so well publicised, but the coverage is vastly disproportionate when compared with the wider context.

  As for “all the historical Popes” - this is ludicrous, bigoted nonsense. Anti-Catholic, ill-informed prejudice like we found in the Ku Klux Klan and in other vile organisations. Virtually all of the incredible achievements that I mentioned above occurred under the aegis of the Papacy. That is an unavoidable historical fact. There are good actors and bad actors, we all have free agency.

  Religion only seems toxic to you because you’re viewing it through toxic goggles. Take ‘em off and live ideology-free!

  Jesus Is Risen: Paul and the Early Church - David Limbaugh
• 
  leadingnorth
  October 10th, 2018
  

  Amen!!

  Jesus Is Risen: Paul and the Early Church - David Limbaugh
• 
  gk78
  October 11th, 2018
  

  @caesar963 “Northern Ireland, for instance (which is just up the road from me), was about Irish Nationalism”

  If this is a clumsy attempt at referencing the Troubles then its wrong. They were sparked off by a violent repression of a civil rights movement seeking equality and fair representation. The violence was aided and abetted by state actors. This fact was recognised at the time and was the reason troops from GB were deployed.

  If its only up the road how are you ignorant of this ?

  Jesus Is Risen: Paul and the Early Church - David Limbaugh
• 
  Sancho2
  October 11th, 2018
  

  

  Caesar:
  “When people rail against religion for bad acts, they are essentially talking about the evils of the world, which occur with or without religion. Bad people do bad things”

  Good people do good things, irrespective of being religious or not.

  Your original post just listed ‘good’ things in the way I listed bad things done under the auspices of religions. Do you honestly think every single architect or worker on the great cathedrals believed there was a Santa Claus figure waiting in the sky to reward them …

  Jesus Is Risen: Paul and the Early Church - David Limbaugh
• 
  Sancho2
  October 11th, 2018
  

  But hey, it has reminded me to request a copy of these books:

  https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/638250.The_Bad_Popes

  https://www.vanityfair.com/style/1999/10/pope-pius-xii-199910

  Jesus Is Risen: Paul and the Early Church - David Limbaugh
• 
  caesar963
  October 11th, 2018
  

  

  That’s a little obtuse of you, gk. You’ve delivered a distinction without a difference, one might say.
  The point which you’re responding to was my refutation of Sancho’s contention that the conflict was based on religion. I pointed out that it was political. You are now supporting my point by confirming that it was political. Irish Nationalists opposed by Ulster Unionists - that’s the dividing line. Two Tribes went to War. Two distinct tribes created by the Plantation. Which tribe do you think were deprived of their rights; and conversely, which tribe do you think were resisting the legal recognition of those basic rights, and, on the whole, conducting themselves like a junta of particularly nasty Nazis?
  The intervention of the British Army (Oliver’s Army) was requested by Irish Nationalists to protect the innocent Nationalist population from pogroms carried out by people who considered themselves to be British. They wanted to burn Nationalists out of their homes and force them to leave the Six Counties. Many had to relocate to the Irish Republic. This has actually been happening since the 1920s. Generally, repression had been continuous, with regular resistance efforts.

  Various political ideologies fed into this “dirty war.” There was a wide spectrum from left to right, united for tactical purposes, on each side. Irish people were broadly left, and people who regarded themselves as “British” were more to the right of the divide. Cos they didn’t want, what was essentially a political slum, to change. No alteration to what they laughably referred to as “a culture.” Same old bloody story: Tribe; Power; Theft; Greed; Politics.
  Territorial Pissings, as Kurt Cobain observed.

  This was significantly more specific detail than I required above.
  Do you normally disagree with people by agreeing with them?
  Don’t merely be contentious for the sake of being argumentative. You’re entering redundancy into the equation.
  (Although, having said that, I usually enjoy reading your comments. I particularly enjoyed the one on the Michael Savage book).
  I can give you further Chapter and Verse on all of the subtle details and nuances of the history of the Six Counties, but, a word of warning - it’s really, really depressing…
  (The overt conflict has ceased, but nothing has really changed on the ground. Bigoted attitudes are as deeply entrenched as ever. Every election is an entirely predictable sectarian head-count. The British know less than nothing about the place, and their interventions create more problems than they solve. Most Irish people don’t really care about it - we’re very glad the “war” is over - but our politics and society have diverged very much from theirs. Many of us see the people there as being neither Irish nor British. They’re viewed as a breed apart. More tribalism, I suppose).

  Jesus Is Risen: Paul and the Early Church - David Limbaugh
• 
  caesar963
  October 11th, 2018
  

  

  Happy to say that I answered each and every one of your claims comprehensively, Sancho.
  However, you are quite correct that good people do good things, irrespective of religion. But in Christian cultures, what model of “good” do you think that these people are following and observing? The context, paradigm and framework in a Christian culture is that of Objective, Christian, Moral Values. It forms, shapes and frames our moral universe. How do you condemn evil without reference to this system of morality? How else do you think the Holocaust and all of the human rights abuses, torture and atrocities carried out by the Nazis were tried and condemned at Nuremberg? The same system of Objective, Christian morality. Even the Soviet judges at the trial recognised its authority. Also, where do you think the concept of human rights originated?
  It’s all about attributing the source and acknowledging a debt.
  It founds our law, ethics, morality, sense of justice and what is true and good.

  All of those great masterworks catalogued were designed and created for the greater glory of God, whether any of us like it or not. We can’t put a window into anyone’s soul to discover what they truly believe. A futile suggestion, which actually takes us nowhere. Are all self-defined atheists telling the truth about what they sincerely believe, or are they outwardly conforming to please their peers and fit the contrived frame expected of them? Do you see what I mean? Futile.

  Does every intelligent person doubt themselves? Of course, welcome to the world. The opposite of faith is not doubt, it’s stupid certainty that you’re absolutely right.

  As for all the nasty biographies - any hack can do a character assassination, but neither hatchet-job nor hagiography gets close to the core of truth. Any other view is puerile. We’re all human and therefore deeply flawed.
  The books that you mentioned can indeed be good for a chuckle, but you shouldn’t ignore the actual, objective, historical record. The real historiography is far richer and immeasurably more rewarding.

  Interesting debate, sorry for my incredible “length.”

  Jesus Is Risen: Paul and the Early Church - David Limbaugh
• 
  posico4730
  April 24th, 2023
  

  seeding please

  Jesus Is Risen: Paul and the Early Church - David Limbaugh

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