Cannibal Capitalism: How Our System Is Devouring Democracy, Care, and the Planet - and What We Can Do About It - Nancy Fraser

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• 
  caesar963
  January 17th, 2023
  

  Mentioning “socialist movement” in the same sentence as starvation causing death, is a truly bitter irony given the history of the 20th century dark age.

  Cannibal Capitalism: How Our System Is Devouring Democracy, Care, and the Planet - and What We Can Do About It - Nancy Fraser
• 
  AudioBookBay12311
  January 18th, 2023
  

  @caesar963 Why do you not continue this argument to capitalism? Because capitalism killed and kills a lot more people:

  This paper: http://piketty.pse.ens.fr/files/Sen2006.pdf

  Shows that in the middle of the 20th century, China and India had the same life expectancy of around 40 years. After the Chinese revolution, a massive divergence took place where by 1979 Maoist China had a life expectancy of 68 years. 14 years longer than that of capitalist India.

  The excess in mortality of capitalist India over communist China was estimated to be a horrifying 4 million human lives a year. That’s 40 million dead due to capitalism in India, in a decade. And around 80 million dead in two decades. So why do you not hold India up as an example of the murderousness of capitalism?

  The book “Hunger and Public Action”:

  “it is important to note that despite the gigantic size of excess mortality in the Chinese famine, the extra mortality in India from regular deprivation in normal times vastly overshadows the former. Comparing India’s death rate of 12 per thousand with China’s of 7 per thousand, and applying that difference to the Indian population of 781 million in 1986, we get an estimate of excess normal mortality in India of 3.9 million per year. This implies that every eight years or so more people die in India because of its higher regular death rate than died in China in the gigantic famine of 1958 – 61. India seems to manage to fill its cupboard with more skeletons every eight years than China put there in its years of shame.”

  As for a modern example, 34 million people, including 9 million children are food insecure (lack sufficient food intake) in the richest country in existence, the US: https://www.feedingamerica.org/hunger-in-america

  Capitalism is unable to provide food in many nations in Africa causing 10 thousand kids to die everyday due to starvation: https://gdc.unicef.org/resource/nearly-half-all-child-deaths-africa-stem-hunger-study-shows

  And the richer capitalist nations are a source of the problem. One of the factors is due to speculative frenzies in commodity market, causing a billion people food insecurity. With of course massive returns for those engaging in those activities (and by the way, the consumption of meat and animal products is a direct cause too, as poorer nations are boxed out of these market by the farmers in richer nations who use those grains to fatten animals): https://frederickkaufman.typepad.com/files/the-food-bubble-pdf.pdf

  Surplus food gets destroyed rather than distributed because that raises the cost of food which increases profit margins: https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/may/07/farmers-food-covid-19

  There are many examples in other sectors where capitalism fails, e.g. 112 million people are having trouble paying for healthcare in the richest country in existence, the US: https://thehill.com/changing-america/3012358-112-million-americans-struggle-to-pay-for-healthcare-report/

  And 45 thousand people die every year because they cannot afford healthcare in the richest country in existence, the US (that’s 450k people in a decade): https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2009/09/new-study-finds-45000-deaths-annually-linked-to-lack-of-health-coverage/

  There are many examples that show how capitalism is constantly failing to provide, even for the people in the richest countries.

  As an income earner, I am not understanding why you’d identify with the capitalists. You are forced to resort to stealing books because you are not able to afford them, at least not to the quantity that you would like to consume them. It is akin to a peasant identifying with a king. Or a subject and a thief. As if their interests are compatible to yours. In reality, they are in direct conflict.

  This is why more people turn to socialism. It is the actualization of that conflict, and a direct solution. And nowhere does that imply that the exact same previous systems will have to be repeated. If you read modern socialists and modern theory you would see that.

  Cannibal Capitalism: How Our System Is Devouring Democracy, Care, and the Planet - and What We Can Do About It - Nancy Fraser
• 
  caesar963
  January 18th, 2023
  

  Your contrast betw China & India reveals far more than you want it to. (We’ll just skirt over the fact that I can’t believe you’re still defending genocidal regimes & their evil ideologies.)
  When an ideological regime centrally plans a vast genocide (which also happened under the Soviet Empire as well, remember, millions of the long-suffering Ukrainians & others were murdered in the Holodomor. And there was more famine early in the Soviet regime. Lenin historically opposed famine relief measures, and was destroying the Churches & structures which would have accomplished this role. Additionally, there were also the Ethiopian & the North Korean famines.) - this genocidal planning will drastically reduce a population, leaving more for less. A surplus for people to live on; a surplus which such a regime didn’t otherwise provide.

  “Capitalist” India’s population continued to vastly increase, because their government did not intentionally set out to murder millions upon millions of them. This left less for more. (We’ll leave aside that India is one of the few countries in the world today that still styles itself “socialist” in its constitution.)

  “You are forced to resort to stealing bks…not able to afford them, at least not quantity that you would like to consume” - We are all indeed compelled to make prudential judgments in the allocation of our resources. But I do have food. For myself & my family. The market “capitalism” system I vote for & support incentivises economic activity, and then taxes the healthy surplus to spend on social programmes to ensure that we don’t starve our population, as in your cherished, broken ideology.

  “As if their interests are compatible to yours” - Yes, see above. So, your interests are compatible with those of Mao, Stalin, Lenin, Pol Pot, the Kims, Marx, Engels, and all the other bloody ideologues? That’s truly terrifying.

  Socialism was always “supposed” to aim at the elimination of inequality in income, status and standards of life. However, it actually aimed at the elimination of life instead. So your talk of “improved” theory is entirely moot. We have the real examples of a 100% record of genocidal failure before us - in actual, appalling practice. Once people know the history, it’s game over. People don’t risk their lives to escape Utopia, y’know.

  Cannibal Capitalism: How Our System Is Devouring Democracy, Care, and the Planet - and What We Can Do About It - Nancy Fraser
• 
  AudioBookBay12311
  January 18th, 2023
  

  As did China’s. They went from 543 million in the 1950s to almost 1 billion in the 1980s. A growth of 439 million people. https://www.macrotrends.net/countries/CHN/china/population

  While India went from 357 million in the 1950s to almost 700 million in the 1980s. A growth of 339 million people. https://www.macrotrends.net/countries/IND/india/population

  So using your point, the reverse is true. There was less for more in China than there was in India. So we should be seeing the opposite result - the decline of China’s life expectancy.

  The reason for pointing this out, is that capitalism killed more Indians than did Chinese socialism even with the flawed policy. Your argument of counting deaths should be in support of socialism in this case because a lot less people died. So to use your language, why are you defending the genocidal and evil ideology of capitalism in this case?

  If you read about the Great Chinese Famine even from the most anti socialist sources, none claim that it was a purposefully planned genocide. But due to failed policies (also meaning that such policies do not have to be repeated), including natural disasters such as droughts and flooding. There are also such events in capitalism’s history: 1,000,000 dead: Irish Potato Famine (1845–1849). 29,000,000 dead: Famine in British Colonized India (1876–1879 & 1897–1902). No official numbers: “Scorched earth” policy to hunt buffalo to near extinction to cause famine and displacement of native Americans (1871 - 1905). 1,000,000 - 4,000,000 dead: Famine in Bengal province of British India (1943), and etc (e.g. there’s a lot more. From US’s food destruction in North Korea/Vietnam/Cambodia/Laos, to a more recent 500,000 dead by famine due to sanctions on Iraq) (I could also turn away from genocide by famine and point to capitalist slaughter in the Middle East, Latin America, India, Africa, etc - surmounting to half a billion - billion people).

  My point isn’t to defend these regimes, but to point out that they weren’t one note as you are suggesting. That you have to take more into account than these events. Imagine if my only consideration of capitalism would be the slaughter of 100 - 150 million native Americans and the enslavement of 4 million to 10 million black people by capitalist America, and then using your language “Why are you defending the genocidal and evil ideology of capitalism”? Would you not think this is disingenuous?

  I further pointed out that the capitalist system in Africa cannot provide sufficient food this very day, to the point where 10 thousand kids are dying every single day (and that capitalist nations could prevent a lot of that - but they destroy surplus food because it is more profitable to do) (and that even people in the richest capitalist country have a lot of food insecurity and trouble paying for healthcare - and there’s much more to add to the list e.g. water safety). So following your counting death due to systems argument, capitalism has killed (and kills) more than does socialism. If African nations became socialist and had a similar increase in life expectancy, a lot less people would die. But you are not in support of that. So in the end, you do not care that more people have been killed and die to this day as long as your supposed superior ideology is followed?

  Cannibal Capitalism: How Our System Is Devouring Democracy, Care, and the Planet - and What We Can Do About It - Nancy Fraser
• 
  caesar963
  January 18th, 2023
  

  “There was less for more in China” - No, you fail to see the point. When the Chinese ideological regime killed off almost 15% of their population, in excess of 70 million human beings over a few decades, there were more resources for fewer people (China as a specific state - as there is no one-to-one correspondence). Population & life expectancy could expand - particularly when the regime abandoned your failed economics. Although they did retain the oppressive, human rights violating elements of your ideology (witness the genocide which is happening in real time; in addition repressive measures in Hong Kong, etc.).

  However, here are further indicators of ideology & health. Hong Kong, with the legacy of its sane political, social & economic system, has the highest life expectancy in the world (this should alter now). It has the lowest infant mortality rate in the world, & high-quality child health care. This is in spite of Hong Kong spending less on both health & social care as a proportion of GDP than other countries such as the US or the UK.

  In contrast to the 1st in life expectancy, we have the legacy of China’s repressive system placing it at 48th in the world. (My own benighted capitalist country is 30 points ahead of it.)
  More direct comparators possibly are N Korea & S Korea. S Korea is 11th in the world, with eleven years more life expectancy than N Korea & its toxic system. Such extreme ideology actually being demonstrably toxic to life.

  Life expectancy is greater in market or “capitalist” systems.

  “a lot less people died” - In excess of 70 million hunan beings were killed. It’s disgusting to evade this with sleazy ideological euphemisms like “flawed policy.”

  It was a centrally planned famine, similar to the Holodomor, because when the impact could be seen, the policies continued for years.

  All imperialism is evil, whether Western countries do it or your ideology does it. Everything is done is pragmatic pursuance of their aims. Russia & China also operated empires of ideology - also prosecuting invasions, wars & punitive operations, with untold death tolls. In addition to all of the other, failed ideological regimes.

  Interventions to introduce liberal democracy do not work. That’s the lesson of recent history.
  Slavery - as still practiced in the world today - is clearly evil. But your “state slavery” has also proven itself to be catastrophically evil. And it doesn’t operate to improve anything, instead making everything incredibly worse.

  “capitalist system in Africa cannot provide sufficient food” - Neither could your regime in Ethiopia. My evil capitalist country gives a percentage of our GDP to needy African countries, in addition to sending personnel for vital, life-saving projects. We don’t burn food in front of anyone. The rest of the EU is engaged in similar projects.

  “If African nations became socialist & had a similar increase in life expectancy(?) a lot less people would die. But you are not in support of that.” - Ethiopia? Mugabe? Somalia? Angola? etc. etc?
  This is true delusion. You support that?
  “My point isn’t to defend these regimes” - But you clearly are doing just that. Point made.

  “you do not care that more people have been killed and die to this day as long as your supposed superior ideology is followed” - The sick irony of a socialist saying this, with the ideological 20th century bloodbath in the rearview & all of its intentional genocide, is truly beyond parody.

  Cannibal Capitalism: How Our System Is Devouring Democracy, Care, and the Planet - and What We Can Do About It - Nancy Fraser
• 
  AudioBookBay12311
  January 18th, 2023
  

  1. 70 million people did not die in the famine. Analysts give numbers of 15 - 55 million, with the majority being in the 20 - 30 million range. And because production of grain fell due to failed agricultural policies (e.g. close planting and deep plowing that resulted in lower yields, as well as shifting food production to cash crop production such as sugarcane, cotton, etc), people died because less resources were available. This stabilized once equilibrium was reached (resources were sufficient to prevent more deaths). Where does this imply that more resources were available for less people? Particularly when taking the growth of population into account (by the end of the famine, there were 12 million more people. From 652 million to 664 million by the end of the famine). You have to provide evidence to support this argument.

  2. Look into the book “The New Jim Crow”, and you will find the same oppression of black people in the US. The US pushed black people into poverty and then with the help of the CIA, flooded black communities with drugs to fund the fascist forces in Nicaragua to defeat the widely supported leftist forces, as Gary Webb exposed. Laws were passed in combination to punish the possession of rock cocaine over 100 times more severely than the possession of powder cocaine (which is the version in use in white communities). This allowed the US to fill private prisons with millions of black people while white people were getting slaps on the wrist for possessing the exact same drug. And as allowed by the US constitution (that forced labor can be used as punishment), billions were created to be privatized by the financial elite this way: https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2022/sep/27/slavery-loophole-unpaid-labor-in-prisons

  This sort of genocide that is still going on today, in the richest capitalist country gets a pass, but the socialist one, now that’s the one that really matters, is the sort of logic that is constant in your arguments. This makes it seem that you do not care about a scientific/analytical view but that you only care that your ideological system seems better.

  3. Hong Kong was turned into the trade capital of China (under force). You can hardly give all of its successes to it’s capitalist system. Especially when the opposite policy is followed with socialist systems who are sanctioned and prevented from trade.

  4. You mention South Korea as superior to North Korea, but just as in places like Vietnam, the US saw that the fascist forces had no support to win an election compared to the widely supported communism, so they turned to funding the fascist forces to fight the communist forces. After the fascist forces were losing badly, the US directly intervened and killed as many as possible and then used scorched earth policy to make sure that the people left over had nothing to inherent. They then funded the development of South Korea and sanctioned North Korea, which you are now using as evidence of capitalisms superiority. Akin to poking somebodies eyes out and then blaming them for being blind.

  In reality, if socialism was that terrible, the capitalists would allow it to spur and then watch it fail. But they do not. They directly intervene with every tool that they have because they know it is a superior system (as shown later) that cannot be allowed to succeed because it would spread. Why would anyone accept lower living standards (that are now decreasing all over the western world) so that some financial elite can get even richer?

  5. As for China being the 48th in life expectancy, China has a life expectancy about a year longer than the US. Following your argument, it’s repressive system is superior to the US system?

  6. Life expectancy in not greater in capitalist systems if it’s development is taken into account (nor other quality of life factors): https://sci-hub.mksa.top/10.2190/AD12-7RYT-XVAR-3R2U

  “In 30 of 36 comparisons between countries at similar levels of economic development, socialist countries showed more favorable physical quality of life outcomes”

  “All the socialist countries have initiated major public health efforts. These initiatives have aimed toward improved sanitation, immunization, maternal and child care, nutrition, and housing. In every case, the socialist countries also have reorganized their health care systems, to create national health services based on the principle of universal entitlement to care. These policies have led to greater accessibility of preventive and curative services for previously deprived groups. Expanded educational opportunity also has been a major priority of the socialist nations, as publicly subsidized education has become more widely available. Literacy campaigns in these countries have brought educational benefits to sectors of the population that earlier had not gone to school. While capitalist countries at higher levels of economic development have enjoyed similar fruits of public health and educational improvements, poorer capitalist countries seldom have succeeded in implementing such drastic changes in policy. Even in the wealthier capitalist countries, public health and educational policies have not achieved equitable access for low-income groups, racial minorities, and geographically isolated communities.”

  To get into the specifics:

  “Within each level of economic development, the socialist countries had infant mortality and child death rates approximately two to three times lower than the capitalist countries. In the low-income capitalist countries, the infant mortality and child death rates were very high- 131 and 25.7 per 1000, respectively”

  “At equivalent levels of development, the socialist countries showed more favorable life expectancy than the capitalist countries. These differences were largest for the low-income and lower-middle-income countries, and the differences narrowed for the upper-middle-income countries. Life expectancy was quite short in the low-income capitalist nations - 48 years.”

  “Socialist countries consistently showed much higher numbers of health professionals per population than capitalist countries at equivalent levels of economic development. These differences were clearest at the low-income and lower-middle-income level, for which the ratios were between five and ten times more favorable in the socialist countries. The ratio of population per physician in lower-middle-income and upper-middle-income socialist societies was comparable to that of high-income Capitalist societies.”

  “Within each level of development, the socialist countries provided a higher daily per capita calorie supply as a percentage of requirement than did the capitalist countries. Upper-middle-income socialist countries had the highest mean nutritional supply in the world. The difference between capitalist and socialist countries averaged 12 to 15 percent. Nutritional supply of all socialist countries exceeded the 100 percent requirement.”

  “The adult literacy rate of the socialist countries greatly surpassed that of the capitalist countries at each level of development. Upper-middle-income socialist countries approached the literacy rate of the high-income capitalist countries. The literacy rate of the low-income capitalist countries was extremely low at 34 percent. In the low-income and middle-income ranges, the number enrolled in secondary schools as a percentage of age group also was markedly higher in the socialist countries”

  7. I am not understanding the purpose of using this argument “It’s disgusting to evade this with sleazy ideological euphemisms like “flawed policy.””, but then saying “Interventions to introduce liberal democracy do not work. That’s the lesson of recent history.”

  Several things are done here: 1. You are using the same argument. Socialism had flawed policies = sleazy and ideological to look into it apart from propaganda arguments. Capitalism had flawed policies where tens of millions were killed and whole countries were ruined with scorched earth policies to destroy socialism = Good intentions, didn’t work, lesson learned. 2. Implying that these events in socialism is just what socialism is. Nothing else is possible. It cannot learn. It’s policies cannot change. But of course, capitalism can!

  8. Due to unequal exchange, the EU’s living standards are higher because under-developed countries are exploited. If you had to pay more for the products you consume because there was less exploitation of under-developed countries, your living standards would skyrocket down. The EU giving some of that value back in the form of aid doesn’t reverse this unequal exchange. Which means that people in under-developed countries have to have a lower living standard for you to have a higher living standard, and only a little bit of that is reversed with aid. This video goes into more detail if that is of interest: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4lDZaKjfs4E

  9. As for your lasting argument, what I have presented is true. Socialism has killed and kills less people to this very day even when taking it’s worst, failed policies (which again, do not have to be repeated…) into account, but you do not care. Even though capitalism is worse in all the regards that you mentioned (as shown above).

  Cannibal Capitalism: How Our System Is Devouring Democracy, Care, and the Planet - and What We Can Do About It - Nancy Fraser
• 
  FreePalestine
  January 18th, 2023
  

  

  Superb quality reply, AudioBookBay12311.

  I suspect you’ll get noise back but , well, it’s to be expected at this point: your audience, as you seem well aware, isn’t Troll963, after all….

  Cannibal Capitalism: How Our System Is Devouring Democracy, Care, and the Planet - and What We Can Do About It - Nancy Fraser
• 
  caesar963
  January 18th, 2023
  

  Concerning the ideological genocides & amount of people murdered - It’s not just the centrally planned famine in China - there was of course the repression & genocidal measures in general, including the murders of the “Cultural Revolution” - the number of 70 million human beings murdered is an estimate - the total could be (& likely is now) far higher. But you knew that. This is not a secret. However, I appreciate your ideological effort to lowball the figures. When an estimated 15% of the population are killed off over time, available resources are less thinly spread. This was the inhuman “advantage” offered by your failed ideological system. Regarding population, this was already the most populated country in the world, and births would remain a constant factor; added to this, not every region suffered to the same extent due to the ideologically planned famine. The worst hit provinces were Anhui, Chongqing, Sichuan, Guizhou & Hunan.

  Moreover, it is also false to present the Great Leap Famine as merely disastrous incompetence with regard to agriculture. There were the specifically calamitous ideological failures, such as forcing people into communes, destruction of efficient private enterprise, state appropriation of grain, ideological agents inventing production figures to create an illusion of plenty & non-existent ideological success (which is a consistent factor with such toxic ideologies), there was also constant ideological repression, intimidation, beatings - with the added horror of cannibalism (with ref to the title of this work), on an unprecedented scale.

  Regarding a “scientific/analytical view” - the best predictor of future behaviour is past behaviour. You are continuing to promote - mind-bogglingly - an ideological nexus which has a 100% record of catastrophic, genocidal failure - within living memory. You maintain that it would be immeasurably superior to the market system which has delivered unprecedented life expectancy levels, prosperity & innovation - with absolutely no empirical evidence whatsoever. Whatever system is attempted will be flawed, continuing to boost a failed, broken, genocidal ideology is utterly mindless & objectively iniquitous.

  “you only care that your ideological system seems better” - The market system in my country (& throughout the EU) allows us to pay for necessary programmes to actually help people. It doesn’t just “seem” better to planned ideological famines, genocide, state slavery, concentration camps & repression - it is demonstrably, empirically superior. Life expectancy, health outcomes, innovation, quality of life & the full gamut of metrics prove it.

  “Hong Kong was turned into trade capital of China (under force). You can hardly give all of its successes to it’s capitalist syst” - Demonstrably, with its political, social & economic system (granted, it’s being severely repressed now, by your favoured ideology), it has the highest life expectancy in the world. China comes in at 48. A direct comparison on this key metric. It also has the lowest infant mortality rate in the world, & high-quality child health care - in spite of spending less on both health & social care as a proportion of GDP than other states such as the US or the UK. So, in that context, how do you account for its incredible success, its manifest, objective benefits as a market economy, given that it has not, until recently, been a victim of your brutal ideology? It’s clear that your toxic ideology kills, but how do you then specifically explain the remarkable & devastating contrast, in favour of the market system? What evidence do you offer?

  More direct comparators possibly are N Korea & S Korea. S Korea is 11th in the world, with eleven years more life expectancy than N Korea & its toxic system. Such extreme ideology actually being demonstrably toxic to life.

  Life expectancy is greater in market or “capitalist” systems as compared to your toxic ideological systems. With massive disparities in effect. The increase has been truly startling, and, as demonstrated in Europe (& my own country) is continuing to increase.

  “fascist forces…communist forces” - Both equally appalling, effectively a distinction sans a difference. All of their millions of victims end up just as dead.

  “You mention S Korea as superior to N Korea” - You honestly don’t observe this yourself?

  South Korea is “fascist?” On the metrics, this is, in reality, one of the most successful countries in the world.
  “capitalisms superiority” - No sane person would prefer to “live” in North Korea, & your oppressive system. You don’t think South Koreans live better lives than the unfortunate victims of your oppressive ideology in the North? Oh dear…
  “sanctioned North Korea” - You imagine that North Korea is an innovative, human rights system - poised for success “if only?” Where is the evidence for anything like this?

  The use of the term “fascist” or “fascist forces” must be carefully & specifically circumscribed. The 1920s/30s European phenomenon of, in particular, Italian fascism, cannot be mapped onto Asia or elsewhere. It was a nebulous concept even in its actual manifestation.
  Any rational people who do not want the genocidal catastrophe of your ideology cannot expediently be labelled as “fascist” in order to falsely make your ideology seem less genocidal than it really is, and to dishonestly discredit an entire people.

  “In reality, if socialism was that terrible(???) the capitalists would allow it to spur and then watch it fail. But they do not. They directly intervene with every tool that they have because they know it is a superior system(???) that cannot be allowed to succeed because it would spread.” - In reality (remember that?) the toxic ideology had over one third of the planet’s population in captivity - for decades. Massive states, with untold bureaucratic power. If it could possibly show any sign of working, it would have. But it was an utter disaster immediately. All they did was make war on their own people, starve, murder, imprison, enslave; invade & oppress neighbouring countries as they built their ideological empires. Anything else is obviously self-serving con theory.

  “Why would anyone accept lower living standards” - There’s little that people can do, when your ideology forces disastrously low living standards upon them, with all the power of the authoritarian state bearing down on them, as we know.

  “that are now decreasing all over the western world????” - This requires at least some effort at support. Study Europe on life expectancy. It will be a long time before life expectancy here drops to the level of your ideological states.

  “China being 48th in life expectancy, China has life expectancy about a yr longer than the US. Following ur argum, it’s repressive system is superior to US system?” - China did abandon your disastrous economic nonsense in order to embrace the market, so it inevitably has improved in economic terms. Still no human rights, however, a regime which you favour for some unaccountable reason. As for America, globalisation does seem to have been a disaster for many there. Added to that, America has a much more diverse population than China, with varied & variable health outcomes. As to discrete groups: what do you reckon the life expectancy of the Uyghur people is currently? To refresh your memory, they are the target of the present genocide (the latest genocide). Do you believe we have received accurate data on the progress of Covid from the Chinese regime? Again, my own evil “capitalist” country is 30 points ahead of China, along with many other such states which are ahead of China et al on some many essential indices. Does that reveal anything to you?

  “Life expectancy in not greater in capitalist systems if it’s development is taken into account (nor other quality of life factors)” - Correcting for government corruption & incompetence? What about government corruption & incompetence as pivotal factors in you favoured regimes?

  “In 30 of 36 comparisons between countries at similar levels of economic development, socialist countries showed more favorable physical quality of life outcomes” - Now compare socialist states to the European Union. On all metrics. That’s right - uh oh…

  “All the socialist countries have initiated major public health efforts.” - Why are they performing so poorly when compared to Hong Kong, the European states, Sth Korea et al? Regarding helath care - and the socialist states history of making war on their own people, planned famines, genocide, state slavery, concentration camps - the health outcomes & care for the Uyghur people? Precisely.

  We implement beneficial programmes in my country without having to resort to toxic ideology or depriving everyone of human rights.

  On infant mortality, health care & life expectancy - look specifically at what Hong Kong was able to achieve. First in the world, with a market system, and lower specnding on health & social care. Why not emulate that successful model? Rather than destroying it, of course. Hong Kong is an affront narrow ideologues.

  “low-income capitalist nations - 48 years.” - Selectively isolating countries, such as those in Africa, which is what you’re driven to do in order to try to make your ideology appear less appalling, does not take into account the enormous problems these countries have with regard to governmental corruption, incompetence, war, tribalism, terror, division & exploitation.
  You studiously avoid stable, prosperous instances because they expose your ideological model to ridicule. Refer also to what happened in Angola, Zimbabwe, Somalia, Ethiopia, et al, for analogues within the same region.

  And levels of comparative fundamental human rights & individual liberty? Freedom of the press, expression, property, assembly, association? Rights to due process & fair trial? Routinely appalling in your ideological Utopias. These rights are dismissed by your regimes as “Western.”

  “socialist countries provided higher daily per cap calor supply as a % of requirement than did the capitalist countries. Upr-mid-income socialist countries had highest mean nutrit supply in world.” - You can’t be using the data from the Holodomor, the Great Leap Famine, North Korea, Ethiopia?
  “The difference between capitalist & socialist countries averaged 12 to 15%” - And again, which selected “capitalist” countries? Germany? Denmark? Canada? Austria? Holland? New Zealand?
  “Nutritional supply of all socialist countries exceeded the 100 percent requirement.” - See above.

  “adult liter rate of socialist countries greatly surpassed capitalist countries at each level of development. Upr-mid-income socialist countries approached the literacy rate of the high-income capitalist countries.” - Ah here, they “greatly surpassed” but then they only “approached the literacy rate!” This is more incoherence. Where are you getting this stuff? Why not attribute it? I can’t accept it or evaluate unless it’s properly sourced. It could be from an ideological website or tract. In which case, it’s prima facie void. And the countries - again - what countries? What are these socialist states? And are you describing all barely functioning or failed states (or war zones) as capitalist? Where is the actual substance here? Is it all from a youtube video, or something? Or a socialist journal?

  Ireland has one of the highest literacy rates in the world. Not a socialist country. There - a named country. Data which can actually be verified.

  “It’s disgusting to evade this with sleazy ideological euphemisms like “flawed policy.” - Yeah, “flawed policy” was how you described just one of the centrally planned famines. This was more than a “flawed policy,” just as concentration camps & gulags are not “temporary accomodations” or murdering almost 15% of a population is not merely “liquidation” or “transportation.”
  “Interventions to introduce liberal democracy do not work. That’s the lesson of recent history.” - This was the failed policy recommendation of former Trotskyist Neocons. Disastrously implemented, even though some sectors of these populations did want liberal democracy & human rights to be finally introduced (exiles & residents). Now, in many instances, democracy & fundamental rights are far away as ever. That would make some profoundly happy, of course.

  “Several things are done here…” - No. The market system has had many successes - & flaws. I’m fortunate enough to live in one of the successes (& to have lived in, & visited/studied several others). Exteme ideology has had no successful states. In actual fact, it has caused untold human misery & suffering. Imagine being the victim of an intentional famine, where no relief efforts are permitted? Collapsed, failed, broken ideological states, which have a depressing legacy into the future (look at the Eastern European states, such as Romania, as object lessons & the gratuitous damage inflicted upon them. Look at the disaster of Russia itself, a broken monster of a state, an utter pariah, and still an absolute terror to its neighbours. These ideological disasters cause unforeseeable damage down all the decades). Intentional, planned genocides. Making war on one’s own people, because the people are always the enemy. A pervasive denial of human rights - because a failed ideology takes precedence over everything - especially human lives.

  “EU’s living standards are higher because under-developed countries are exploited” - This is more nonsensical reductionism - a ubiquitous feature of extreme ideology & con theorising. The EU’s success is due to a complex myriad of reasons, not a self-serving single “reason.”
  Your socialist states exploited numerous other countries - colonised & terrorised numerous other countries in their empires - in incessant “War for Peace.” What is China doing in relation to Africa & many “under-developed” countries now - exploitation? You don’t see that as an unequal power relationship? Merely because it’s not the hated EU? Many dictators will become richer, perhaps. What is it doing in Hong Kong, Tibet? Why is it propping up the failed state & calamitous ideology in North Korea?

  “The EU giving some of that value back in the form of aid” - It would be nice if some of the socialist utopias would help these countries as well, instead of exploiting them or sponsoring ideological terror, as they did, leading to failed states (incl Angola, Somalia).

  “people in under-developed countries have to have a lower living standard for you to have a higher living standard” - Hang on a second here, we contribute aid to countries that were ravaged by ideological terror & factions - that were used as proxy sites for your ideological wars; countries that were exploited by imperialism - just as were brutally exploited by imperialism ourselves, while we never colonised any such other country. So you can keep the lectures. We were devastated by Brutish imperialism and had to bring ourselves back. It’s not a zero sum game, we did it without exploiting/stripping other countries. Indeed we’re doing our best to help other countries, while also caring for our own people. We’re not interested in ideological power games, because we’re all too aware of where they lead. To an early grave. But you do not care.

  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4lDZaKjfs4E - I was concerned that youtube videos were indeed a source.
  You’re not prepared to look honestly at the appalling evil your ideology has committed, still commits & will continue to commit. I can note honestly the evils of all imperialism, & the gross injustices that can be operated by markets.

  “what I have presented is true” - Please see above.
  “failed policies (which again, do not have to be repeated…)” - This can only be groundless speculation - the best predictor of future conduct always being past conduct.
  We are part of an international trading community - co-operating instead of warring with each other - working to actually better the lives of our people. Why not opt for that system instead? Something that actually works?

  Cannibal Capitalism: How Our System Is Devouring Democracy, Care, and the Planet - and What We Can Do About It - Nancy Fraser
• 
  FreePalestine
  January 18th, 2023
  

  told you….

  Cannibal Capitalism: How Our System Is Devouring Democracy, Care, and the Planet - and What We Can Do About It - Nancy Fraser
• 
  caesar963
  January 18th, 2023
  

  I’ve always reposed trust in your fierce objectivity, FreeP. Oh, btw, still supporting Putin’s war of aggression & murder campaign?

  Cannibal Capitalism: How Our System Is Devouring Democracy, Care, and the Planet - and What We Can Do About It - Nancy Fraser
• 
  Omaim
  January 20th, 2023
  

  

  Thanks bestie! I’m so glad I came across your page! love all the uploads. Stared it as a fave.

  Cannibal Capitalism: How Our System Is Devouring Democracy, Care, and the Planet - and What We Can Do About It - Nancy Fraser
• 
  ProfitPagan
  January 26th, 2023
  

  For crying out loud, Caesar, why don’t you stop whining ad nauseam here and just write your own book? I, for one, would be interested in that one. Not hopefully, just curiously. Again, I just have to ask- have you actually read or listened to this book, or are you just bleating to hear yourself?

  Cannibal Capitalism: How Our System Is Devouring Democracy, Care, and the Planet - and What We Can Do About It - Nancy Fraser
• 
  caesar963
  January 26th, 2023
  

  Thanks for the support, PP, it’s in the queue, but to coin a sexy phrase, not hopefully. Do you also observe the historical verities & ideological realities?

  Cannibal Capitalism: How Our System Is Devouring Democracy, Care, and the Planet - and What We Can Do About It - Nancy Fraser
• 
  apnea
  March 17th, 2024
  

  

  Empire’s home nation is the most capitalist, dog eat dog, country in the world - how’s that working for y’all?

  **US Has Highest Infant, Maternal Mortality Rates Despite the Most Health Care Spending**

  January 31, 2023

  “Of all countries in 2020, the United States possessed the highest infant mortality rate at 5.4 deaths per 1000 live births, which is markedly higher than the 1.6 deaths per 1000 live births in Norway, which has the the lowest mortality rate.”

  “US maternal mortality in 2020 was over 3 times the rate in most of the other high-income countries, with almost 24 (23.8) maternal deaths for every 100,000 live births.”

  In 2023 the us infant mortality rate was 5.61 deaths per 1000 live births.

  https://www.ajmc.com/view/us-has-highest-infant-maternal-mortality-rates-despite-the-most-health-care-spending

  Cannibal Capitalism: How Our System Is Devouring Democracy, Care, and the Planet - and What We Can Do About It - Nancy Fraser
• 
  apnea
  March 17th, 2024
  

  

  Empire’s home nation is the most capitalist, dog eat dog, country in the world - how’s that working for y’all?

  ##Life expectancy for men in U.S. falls to 73 years — six years less than for women, per study##

  ““The opioid epidemic, mental health, and chronic metabolic disease are certainly front and center in the data that we see here, explaining why there’s this widening life expectancy gap by gender, as well as the overall drop in life expectancy,” said Yan.”

  https://www.statnews.com/2023/11/13/life-expectancy-men-women/

  “The opioid epidemic, mental health, and chronic metabolic disease…”

  These things are epidemic in all western nations, but compared to peer countries, the U.S. has the lowest life expectancy at birth for both women and men.

  Cuz empire don’t need no stinking socialist health care - it’s against their Freedum. Live sick & die young.

  Same as empire’s military - they out spend the next 10 nations on war weapons & toilet seats, but can’t win a war. Notice the pattern of taking tax dollars, but giving back lousy service and results. That’s because the money is going elsewhere.

  The infant mortality rate for Russia in 2023 was 4.807 deaths per 1000 live births VS empire’s 5.61 deaths per 1000 live births in 2023. - Putin beats empire.
  How come CNN never brings that statistic up?

  There’s loads more grim stats exposing the US as a neo liberal capitalist trap for ordinary people. They spent the last 50 years hollowing out the US & dismantling everything & dividing every one right down to the family unit. Getting rid of as many unions as they could was just the first step. There used to be citizens who would congregate in all sorts of groups & many folks belonged to multiple groups, including church. The list of groups where citizens would join and support each other in every way imaginable is to long to list. Gray beards like me remember. Starting in the Reagan era we went from citizens to consumers - ever more divided consumers. Anyone else used to join co-ops to save money? That was a threat. They wanted each consumer divided and to only depend on corporations for every need….for a price. Look around — where are all the social cubs/groups that were unofficial support groups? All but gone. They won by turning human beings into consumer-commuter debt slaves. Call it whatever you like. I call it a toxic anti human, criminal racket(s). It’s so bad that millions of people trapped in it would rather play fentanyl roulette than chase the American/capitalist dream.

  Cannibal Capitalism: How Our System Is Devouring Democracy, Care, and the Planet - and What We Can Do About It - Nancy Fraser

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